Broker Open Today 11 a.m. to 1 p.m.

One Block to Cedar Lake!

Where: 2705 France Ave. South, in Minneapolis' Sunset Gables neighborhood
What: 3 BR/2 Bath Cape Cod with almost 2,200 FSF, including a huge first-floor Family Room.
How much: $439,900
Who: listed by Ross Kaplan, Edina Realty City Lakes
When: on market yesterday (Nov. 15).

If you're anywhere Cedar Lake over lunch hour today, please feel free to stop by my Broker Open at 2705 France (even if you're not a Realtor).

You'll be impressed by this home's fine construction, period details like cove moldings and a Dining Room arch, and the spacious, eat-in Kitchen.

Oh . . . . and there's a 600 square foot, 2 1/2 car garage (detached) in back to go with the one car attached -- not something you commonly find with 1938 Cape Cod's in such a great location.

P.S.: in keeping with the "man plans, God laughs" theme a few posts back, my gorgeous Fall shots (including the one above) turned out to have a shelf life of 48 hours: taken last Thursday, the Twin Cities almost immediately turned white with the arrival of the season's first big storm Friday.

What's Selling: Cedar Lake

Acing the "Ooh!" and "Aaah!" Factor

Where: 2700 Chowen Ave. South in Minneapolis' Sunset Gables subdivision (just south of Cedar Lake)

What: Moderne-style Art Deco with 5 Bedrooms and 5 Baths, and 3,800 finished square feet

How much: listed for $875,000; sold for $823,050 (94% of asking price, and more than $35,000 over the tax assessed value).

When: less than 3 months on the market; closed Friday (Oct. 22).

Who: listed by Ross Kaplan, Edina Realty City Lakes; selling agent Paul Larson, Coldwell Banker Burnet

What's selling in a tough market, especially for upper bracket homes?

Trophy properties like 2700 Chowen Ave. South, just south of Cedar Lake in Minneapolis.

This historically designated home probably generated more "ooh's" and "aaah's" than any other home I've listed, for good reason: prospective Buyers salivated over the original fresco above the Fireplace, the custom millwork and period Art Deco light fixtures, and all the space and light.

The clincher?

A $200k-plus first-floor addition (2004) complete with its own washer dryer and private, courtyard entrance.

Pre-List: 27xx France Ave. South

Sunset Gables Sneak Peak

Where: 27xx France Ave South, in Minneapolis' Sunset Gable neighborhood (and just one block to Cedar Lake, pictured above)
What: 3 BR/2 BA Colonial with eat-in Kitchen, updated mechanicals and 3 1 /2 (!) parking spaces (detached 2 1/2 car, and attached one car)
How (much): $439,900
When: on market early Nov.
Who: listed by Ross Kaplan, Edina Realty-City Lakes

Want an early peek at a terrific Colonial just one-half block to Cedar Lake?

Please call (612-925-7701) or email me (rosskaplan@edinarealty.com) to set up a showing, in advance of the formal market debut in a couple weeks.

On Sale: Basswood Road

Chain-Reaction "For Sale" Signs

It's one of those anomalies that you see from time to time -- and that understandably gives Buyers pause: a block where every other house seems to be for sale.

At the moment, that phenomenon seems to characterize Basswood Road, a 3 block-long street just west of Cedar Lake that straddles France Ave. (all but the very east end is in St. Louis Park; the rest is in Minneapolis).

What's going on?

I see three factors at play:

One. The "clogged pipeline" effect.

Two of the four (soon to be 5!) houses on the market were originally listed more than 18 months ago.

Rather than reduce their prices incrementally when they failed to sell, the owners have been holding their ground, literally.

While that strategy can work in a rising market, in a falling or flat market it causes a home to be "marooned," overpriced and stagnant -- and gumming up the pipeline for more recent home sellers.

Two. Functional obsolescence.

Much of the housing stock in the area consists of ramblers built in the 1950's: sturdy and solid, to be sure, but now functionally obsolete in many cases.

That often means only one hall bath for all the Bedrooms (vs. a private Master Bath); a dated, too-small Kitchen; and small and too few Bedrooms.

As I've written before, while mortgages have never been cheaper, (major) remodeling dollars are especially scarce now.

Three. Generational turnover.

Several of the Sellers have been in the neighborhood for 25-plus years.

They're now empty nesters who need less space, don't want to do maintenance, and want to travel more.

In other words, it's just time for them to sell.

Having all bought around the same time, it's natural for them to now move on at the same time.

Sizing it All Up

So, what should Buyers make of all the homes for sale on Basswood now?

And should you ever steer clear when you see too many "For Sale" signs?

My answers: "not so much," and "yes, depending."

Certainly where the explanation is rampant foreclosures, Buyers are wise to stay away: foreclosures are like an undertow that pull down the value of all nearby homes.

Ditto for unalloyed negatives like new (or wider) nearby freeways, garbage incinerators, power stations and the like.

However, when other factors are at play (the case on Basswood), and the neighborhood is in a great location with good housing stock, such temporary "Seller gluts" can be great opportunities.

What's Selling . . . Fern Hill

Where: 2537 Joppa, in St. Louis Park's Fern Hill neighborhood, 2 blocks west of Cedar Lake.

What: 1 1/2 story home built in 1950 with almost 2,000 finished square feet.

How (much): listed for $285,000

When: market time = 2 weeks (listed August 27); scheduled to close Oct. 15 (currently "Pending" on MLS)

Who: sold by Ross Kaplan, Edina Realty City Lakes; co-listed by Linda Platt and Jonathan Spar, Edina Realty

How did this 1950, 1 1/2 story two blocks from Cedar Lake sell in two weeks?

For starters, it helped that it was . . . two blocks from Cedar Lake.

So did an attractive list price, $285,000, that discounted for needed updating -- and then some.

Plus nice curb appeal, a .24 acre lot, and an especially open Living and Dining Room with huge picture windows (pictured above).

Other Factors

So what about the tax assessed value, $404,400?

That certainly didn't hurt the Buyer's perception of value.

However, as I've blogged previously ("Selling Price as % of Tax Assessed Value"), the tax value can be artificially high, especially when it's been years -- or decades -- since the home has changed hands (as was the case here -- the Seller bought the home in 1975 . . . for $46,000!).

$11,000 per Block?

Putting a Price Tag on

Proximity to Cedar Lake

A client of mine says his engineer son-in-law has done a regression analysis calculating the premium associated with proximity to Minneapolis' Cedar Lake.

His number?

$11,000 per block.

If that's correct, that's a very valuable number to have, because lots of Realtors, appraisers -- and their clients! -- spend a lot of time and money trying to quantify just such variables.

"Ceteris Paribus"

And yet . . . as I discussed in The Art of Doing Comp's ("How Big a Premium for Small Lakefront?"), isolating and quantifying such adjustments is more difficult than it sounds.

That's because it's never the case -- at least outside new, tract developments -- that two homes, identical in every respect but their location, sell at exactly the same time.

To use a fancy term, they flunk the "ceteris paribus" test ("everything else held equal").

So, if the two homes are the same size and style, one's much more updated; if they're equally updated, one's substantially bigger; if they're the same style, size, and condition, they sold two years apart, in different market conditions.

Theory vs. Practice

Which doesn't mean that Realtors and others don't estimate premiums and discounts, for many variables, every day.

It's just that it's more a "gut," judgment call than a hard-and-fast objective number.

P.S.: my number for Cedar Lake proximity? I'd start with 2% per block, but would tweak that depending on which block (some are clearly nicer than others).

I also know that the East part of Fern Hill -- between Monterey and France -- commands a bigger premium than "West" Fern Hill, and that a handful of homes on Glenhurst and Huntington with lakeviews command much bigger premiums.

Fern Hill for (Just Over) $200k!

Where: 2615 Monterey in St. Louis Park's Fern Hill neighborhood
What: 2 BR/1 Bath stucco cottage on a private, 140' deep lot.
Who: listed by Ross Kaplan; Edina Realty City Lakes
How much: $209,900
When: market time = 30 days

You'll love this updated, character-filled stucco cottage in high-demand Fern Hill.

It has over $20k in recent improvements, including a new roof, all new windows, interior painting, and gorgeous, refinished hardwood floors.

Just down the street from Twin Lakes Park; blocks to Cedar Lake.

You can't live on a nicer block -- in a nicer area -- for less.

Please call or email me for more info.

Open Today 12 p.m. - 1:30 p.m.

Dramatic Contemporary Near Cedar Lake

Where: 2812 Sunset Blvd.
What: 4 BR/4Bath Contemporary (built 1981) with almost 4,200 (!) finished square feet just down the street from Cedar Lake; minutes to downtown and uptown
How much: $525k
When: noon to 1:30 p.m.
Who: listed by Ross Kaplan, Edina Realty City Lakes

Please stop by my open house later today at 2812 Sunset Boulevard.

The soaring vaulted ceilings and custom, over-sized windows (pictured above) are just a few of this home's many nice features.

Other highlights includes the home office with built-in's overlooking the Living Room (in foreground in the photo above); the private Owner's Suite with a vaulted ceiling, fireplace, balcony, and walk-in closet; the huge lower level -- perfect for teenage kids or guests; and the terrific location, close to everything.

You won't find a better value near the lakes than this!

Metal Roofs: Coming Trend?

Housing Materials, 1950's & Today

Here's a pop quiz for would-be housing market experts:

Which of the following building materials used in contemporary home construction and repair are virtually unchanged from the 1950's?

A. Windows
B. Asphalt shingles (roof)
C. Wood joists (used in framing)
D. Kitchen countertops

Answer: B

In almost every other category, building materials have become more varied, higher quality, environmentally safer -- and often, longer lasting.

In many cases, they're also cheaper; for example, factory-built trusses save an enormous amount of on-site labor.

So, too, consider the improvements in modern-day windows (double-pane, "low e", virtually any size and shape); countertops (Corian, Silestone, various laminates, granite, etc.); plumbing (PVC instead of copper and galvanized steel); skylights (non-leak); flat-roof coverings (non-leak rubber membrane); and paint (non-lead; stucco-friendly).

Roofs: 'Same as it Ever Was'

Which harks back to . . . roofs.

I'm not prepared to pronounce it a trend just yet, but I am noting an uptick in homes with metal roofs, particularly in newer homes in upper bracket neighborhoods.

To pick just one example in the Twin Cities, there are now at least a half dozen such homes near Minneapolis' Cedar Lake.

Not only are they aesthetic, but their expected life can easily exceed 50 years (vs. 20-25 for asphalt shingles) -- more than compensating for the extra material and labor cost to install them.

Older is Better -- Sometimes

So, can it be said of anything in housing construction that "they don't make 'em like they used to?"

I can think of at least three things: 1) cedar shingles; 2) hardwood floors; and 3) stucco.

In the first two cases, modern tree farming techniques -- essentially, using agricultural steroids to accelerate growth -- have reduced quality and longevity.

Modern stucco, meanwhile, isn't much different than old-style stucco.

However, today's "tighter" construction techniques, including the use of various barrier wraps (think, Tyvek and its imitators), can raise the risk of trapping moisture between the home's framing and external sheathing.

Oh, Yeah: There's a House, Too

Where: 28xx Benton Blvd.

What: 4BR/3BA home with 3,400 FSF; built in 1921

How much: asking price $1.050M

When: originally listed July 20, 2009

Who: listed by Coldwell Banker Burnet

Normally, the land underneath a home accounts for one-quarter to one-third of a home's tax assessed value.

So, for a home worth $300k, the land would likely be valued at $75k - $100k.

And then there's this home, set on an almost one acre lot backing up to the Kenilworth Channel (connecting Cedar Lake and Lake of the Isles, southwest of downtown Minneapolis):

Land value: $819k

Building value: $214k

Total tax assessed value: $1.033M

If there's a (habitable) home in the Twin Cities with a higher land-to-building ratio . . . I'm not personally aware of it.

How Walkable is Your Neighborhood?

Home Amenities: Floor Plan, Updates . . . 'Walkability'

How "walkable" is any given neighborhood?

You can find out by going to http://www.walkscore.com/ and typing in an address.

The site, which covers 40 U.S. metro areas, generates a map of nearby services (restaurants, groceries, book stores, coffee shops, dry cleaning, etc.), and calculates both a "walkability" score (from 1-100) and an average for the surrounding city.

I tested it by entering three addresses: my current address, just southwest of Cedar Lake in Minneapolis; my former address in the Fulton neighborhood in Southwest Minneapolis; and Lake & Hennepin, the epicenter of Uptown -- and easily the most "walkable" part of Minneapolis.

I thought the scores -- 71, 50, and 98 -- were generally accurate, though "50" for Fulton seemed on the low side (50th Street is full of great shops, local stores, etc.).

Not only is being able to walk to things a nice amenity, there's increasing evidence that it correlates with higher property values (makes sense).

P.S.: Of course, "walkability" is at least partly subjective. My father-in-law takes long walks just feet away from Union Turnpike in Queens, where the cars go whizzing by at 50 mph-plus.

Property Tax Millstone

"If you have to ask about the taxes . . ."

Where: Park Lane in Minneapolis

What/Where: 4 BR/BA Rambler with over 4,000 square feet just southeast of Minneapolis' Cedar Lake

How much: $799k list price

Who (listed by): Agent/Broker -- Robert Landis

What jumps out at me skimming the stats on this new listing (actually, a cancel-and-relist) isn't the great location, the gorgeous .32 acre lot, or the surprising number of square feet (4,000, but it sure doesn't look it).

Rather, it's the $19,578(!) annual property tax bill that comes with!

That's based on an estimated property tax value of almost $1.2 million, which is sure to go down.

But not until 2011, because of the lag in how property taxes are determined.

In the meantime, the ultimate Buyer is going to have to have some pretty good cash flow.

Call it the housing market version of J.P. Morgan's famous line: 'if you have to ask how much the property taxes are . . . you can't afford them."

P.S.: All levity aside, these kinds of ball-and-chain tax bills are going to present increasingly steep obstacles selling upper bracket homes -- especially in high-tax cities like Minneapolis.

PPS: A cancel-and-relist is when the owner cancels the listing and the Realtor brings it back on new. That's standard procedure after a home's been on awhile -- in this case, since August. It's also standard practice to package that with a major price reduction, also true in this case: the owner dropped the price $100k.

The giveaway that this home has been on the market since Summer? The (very) green grass.

40% Below Tax Assessed Value

Where: 16xx Cedar Lake Parkway (just northwest of Cedar Lake in Minneapolis)

What: 3 BR/2BA Contemporary with almost 3,200 finished square feet.

How much: listed for $320k

When: originally listed in Oct. '08 for $549k.

Who: listed by RE/MAX Results; agent is Michael Kohler

In today's market, it's increasingly common to see homes for sale trumpet that their asking price is below the tax assessed value.

It it is not common to see a home selling for almost 40% -- or more than $200k -- below tax assessed value, as the home pictured above is.

It comes as hardly a surprise, then, that this a short sale.

The home originally listed in October, 2008, for $549k.

Stairmaster

The Anti-Rambler

Where: 3504 W. 22nd St, just west of Cedar Lake

How much: $799,000

What: 4 BR/2 Bath Contemporary with 2,433 FSF

Listed by: Cotty Lowry (broker: Keller Williams)

When: on market since June 18

Frequently, the best way to market a home is to visualize who the likely Buyer is -- then market to them.

Sometimes, the opposite works, too: imagine who isn't going to buy the home.

That's easy in the case of 3504 West 22nd st. (pictured above), just west of Minneapolis' Cedar Lake: anyone not in great shape, or who's already dealing with middle age aches and pains.

That's because this house is the most "vertical" home I've ever been in; I had to stop to catch my breath climbing stairs before I even got in the home -- and there were at least as many more inside.

Call it the "anti-rambler."

To the listing agent's credit, he acknowledges the issue with a little humor ("OK, so it has a few steps -- all the better to keep you in shape").

And even though the range of prospective Buyers is narrower for a home like this, frequently the effect isn't so much a huge discount, but longer market time.

It certainly helps that this home is less than a block from Minneapolis' Cedar Lake, and has stunning views of downtown.

Southwest Light Rail Line & Property Values

How Close is Too Close?

I expected the question sooner or later, but I officially received my first, "how is the [Southwest] light rail line going to affect my property value?" inquiry from a Cedar Lake-area homeowner this week.

No doubt, the impetus was a series of public hearings the last few weeks that seemingly increase the odds that the likely route will run between Cedar Lake and Lakes of the Isles on its way to Eden Prairie.

The principal alternative, which now seems to be receding, would go through a more densely populated part of Minneapolis well to the east.

Three Variables

To answer the property value question, I think it's useful to first identify the variables.

I see three: 1) timetable; 2) proximity; and 3) number and location of stations.

One. Timetable. The Southwest line is projected to open between 2015 and 2017. Factor in budget and building delays, and the actual start date could well be later.

Given that the average homeowner moves every 7 years, it's likely that many affected homes will change hands once or even twice before the line is finished. So, at least as of Fall, '09, the impact is relatively remote.

Two. Proximity. While we're talking about light rail, an active rail line is still going to be noticeable to nearby homeowners (noise, vibration, etc.).

So, how close is too close?

Nuisance vs. Convenience

The answer is partly subjective -- note all the people under flight paths near the airport. And yes, supposedly there are people who think hearing trains is "romantic" (personally, I've always thought that was an urban myth).

However, my guess is that closer than 150 feet or so would be a negative for most homeowners.

Put it this way: if you can see the tracks from your house . . . you might be too close, at least for some Buyers.

Beyond that, proximity is likely to be a plus -- assuming that the corridor is not simply a thoroughfare. Which leads to . .

Three. Number and location of stations.

If there are stations located at reasonable intervals, so that light rail actually serves the surrounding neighborhoods, the effect is likely to be a boon for the area -- if not the immediate homes.

Imagine: you can step out your front door, and be minutes from the lakes, uptown, downtown, a job in the suburbs -- without a car!

Additionally, in many cities that already have light rail (think, Washington, DC and the Metro; the Bay Area and BART; Chicago and the L, etc.), the stations spur surrounding development and services, becoming magnets themselves.

All Aboard?

However, if the Southwest light rail line is simply an express thoroughfare to and from the 'burbs, the effect on adjacent areas of Minneapolis will be much more negative.

I doubt it would be as dramatic (traumatic?) -- light rail lines have a smaller footprint than freeways -- but the construction of 35W in South Minneapolis in the '60's bisected whole neighborhoods and started a cycle of blight that continues through today.

It's hard to imagine that happening near Cedar Lake and Lake of the Isles, because the area's character and demographics are much, much different than the corridor along 35W.

However, it's certainly something for urban planners to take note of.

P.S.: Want a more systematic approach? This paper examined the effect of the Hiawatha Line, running between Downtown Minneapolis and the Mall of America, on surrounding property values.

June New Home Sales

Exactly Where Are All Those $206k New Homes??

As [new home] sales rose, median prices . . . continued to fall, slipping to $206,200 from $232,100 in June a year ago.

--Jack Healy, "New U.S. Home Sales Rise Sharply as Prices Fall"; The New York Times (7/27/09)

The big financial headline today is an unexpected monthly rise in new homes sales. According to the Commerce Dept., June sales of new, single-family homes increased 11%, to a seasonally adjusted rate of 384,000.

What caught my eye, though, was the median price: $206,200.

Suffice to say that that's not the price of new homes going up in Edina, around Minneapolis' city lakes, or in Minnetonka.

Rather, that's the price of new homes in places like Albertville, Ostego, and Farmington -- areas 30 miles or further away from the city center, where developers threw up tract homes by the thousands.

Closer in, new homes are strictly custom, one-at-time "leapfrogs" from former tear-downs to, well . . . something much nicer.

A quick look on MLS confirms that.

Since 2008, 24 new "spec" homes (built for resale) were listed in MLS Areas 300 and 309 (roughly covering from Cedar Lake to Lake Harriet).

Average price: $1.03M. Median Price: just under $800k.

(The difference is explained by several, extremely high-end new homes in Lowry Hill, which pull the average up.)

From Too High to Too Low?

A Tale of Two Homes

Where: 29xx Benton Blvd, just southwest of Minneapolis' Cedar Lake

What: 4 BR/4 BA; 3,100 FSF Colonial built in 1939

How much: sold for $641k (July '09); originally listed for $925k (April, '08). Tax assessed value: $849k.

Not convinced that overshooting on asking price can boomerang on a Seller (especially in a declining market)?

Consider this classic, 1939 Colonial just southwest of Cedar Lake, in Minneapolis' Sunset Gables neighborhood ("Exhibit A").

Originally listed at $925k in April, '08, it suffered six price cuts totalling $225k over a 13 month period -- capped by the biggest one of all: a $59k discount from the last asking price of $699.9k.

Ultimate sales price: $641k.

Three blocks west, my clients listed their very similar, 1937 Colonial at almost the same time -- Spring, '08 -- for $875k. Call it "Exhibit B."

Based on the feedback and showing activity, after a month on the market, I advised (and my clients agreed) to cut the price to $829.9k.

Six weeks later, they had a signed deal, and two months after that (Aug, '08), they closed.

Selling price: $790k.

Deal . . or No Deal?

Submit Your Offer . . . Then Wait (and Wait)

Where: 29xx Ewing Ave. South, in Minneapolis' Sunset Gables neighborhood (just southwest of of Cedar Lake)
What: 1932 Tudor with 4 BR/4BA and 3,400 FSF
How much: $425k list price
Tax assessed value: $547.5k
When: went pending 7/21/09

Yes, the Kitchen was a bit dated and the home had some deferred maintenance. And the backyard was mostly eaten up by driveway. But this handsome, rock-solid 1932 Tudor just southwest of Cedar Lake had tons of period detail, 4 large bedrooms up (a rarity), and a particularly large Master Suite.

Factor all that in, and the asking price was easily $100k low.

What happened next?

The predictable "foreclosure feeding frenzy."

Scuttlebutt was that there ultimately were at least ten offerors on this home, who then had to cool their heels the next two weeks as the listing agent continued to show and market the home.

How much behind-the-scenes maneuvering do you think was going on in those two weeks?

How much do you want to bet that whatever discount there may have been originally was whittled down (or eliminated) during that period?

"First Come, First Served" -- Not

I'm certainly not a boy scout, and see nothing wrong with maximizing the owner's selling price -- after all, that's what Sellers pay their Realtors to do.

However, as remarked on this blog previously many times, the foregoing "sales strategy" -- vs. a more open, timely and fair approach -- leaves many Buyers feeling manipulated and cynical about how the real estate business works.

At least with respect to this corner of it, you'd be hard-pressed to argue that they're wrong.

P.S.: So, the Seller was someone who foolishly overpaid at the top of the market and got what they deserved, right? Not exactly. According to tax records, they bought in 1991 for $236k. You'd guess that they took out equity by borrowing against the home, then fell behind.

Sadly, this scenario appears to be increasingly common these days.

Skyline Views? You Judge

Get Out the Binoculars

This $1.495M home just west of Minneapolis' Cedar Lake has lots to recommend it: five bedrooms and baths, over 6,000 FSF, a deluxe Kitchen, and heated pool -- all on a double lot.

However, "spectacular views of the Minneapolis skyline" -- the caption accompanying the photo above -- certainly seems to be stretching it. (If you've got an eagle eye, you can just barely make out the IDS tower in the upper middle of the photo.)

P.S.: it's certainly possible that the photo doesn't do the view justice. I'll know after I see it tomorrow (the home's on tour).

"Two's Company" Overlooking Mpls' Cedar Lake

There is a joke among musicians that if you hit a wrong note once, then shame on you, but if you hit it twice then you’re playing Jazz.

As the parent of a 9 year-old boy, I've observed how one (slightly) nerdy kid can be a lonely island, but two is suddenly . . . a club! (It's funny how in the Realtor business, two Realtors -- or sometimes just one Realtor and their cat -- automatically become a "group" or "team").

So, too, one distinctive home in a high profile location can stick out like a sore thumb. But two can play off each other and look . . . cool.

A great example of that is the two home "combination" at 26th and Huntington, overlooking Minneapolis' Cedar Lake.

After sitting twenty years as an empty lot (the previous home burned down in the mid-'80's), a developer bought the land about five years ago and promptly subdivided it into 3 parcels.

The first of what were to have been three homes, 2545 Huntington (pictured on the left in the photo above) broke ground in 2005, close to the peak of the housing market. After almost two years on the market, it finally sold for $2.1M -- surprisingly close to the original asking price of $2.2M.

Due to its unique, contemporary look, the home has inspired a wide range of comments, mostly negative. I've heard people call it a post office, an office building, "vaguely institutional" -- or simply throw up their hands trying to describe it.

For what you'd guess were economic reasons, the developer scrapped its plan to build two more homes. Instead, it is now finishing a second building, very much like the first, alongside it (it's on the right in the picture above).

So will it fetch anywhere close to the $2.1 million that its architectural sibling did?

We'll never know: the buyer is the owner of the first house. Apparently, he intends to use it as a pool/guest house (the pool is in between the two).